Intro:
I've been a SMiLE fanatic since 1995 (when I got my first SMiLE bootleg) and an internet-SMiLE fanatic since 1998. While SMiLE websites have come and gone, one always remains: "The Smile Shop". Created by Jon Hunt and John Lane, the site has been an invaluable source of info for like minded SMiLE folks, who can (and have) exchanged theories on its popular message board. At first this interview started with just Jon Hunt. But, I realized that I was leaving out half of "The Smile Shop" story. So the interview quickly became a co-interview between Jon Hunt and John Lane.

When I first started pondering questions to ask for the interview, I dug into my "SMiLE archives" to see if there was anything that would jog my memory to the early days of "internet SMiLE" (for me at least), circa 1998. These early "archives" aren't computer copies, but rather hard copy printouts that I would bind as they got large enough; finally amassing a foot-tall stack of these mini SMiLE "books" to read in my pre-internet access days. The first thing that struck me when perusing these early pages were the number of familiar "faces" that we still see on the message boards today: Cam Mott, Bill Tobelman, Jon Hunt, John Lane, Andrew Doe, etc. My earliest archives (from the 'green' and 'white' boards) date from 1998, making some of these folks 7+ year (at least) SMiLE fanatics.

What follows is our recent conversations about all things SMiLE...

E.C.: From this network of core SMiLE fanatics, what led to the SMiLE Shop website? Was it a conscious effort to bring the antiquated "fanzine" to the computer age?

Jon Hunt: Nope -- competition, pure and simple!! John and I had been talking about aggregating all the info into a website, a kind of online "Look, Listen, Vibrate, Smile," and trying to draw the community into it with us. But we were really just working against the clock to beat April, the woman who used to run the Smile Research Labs list!! She had been planning the same thing, and we wanted ours to be bigger, better, and cooler. Unfortunately, that sorta backfired -- she basically vanished from the community. See what competition does?? Bad things, Ronnie, bad things. Bad karma.

John Lane: I remember emailing Jon Hunt and presenting him with this conceptual idea of a site that had various rooms in it, all under the guise of The Smile Shop. I'd gotten tired of my own rinky-dink page of Smile bookmarks, and thought it would be fun to run a site with someone else. Turns out that Jon Hunt, as I suspected, had talent to burn. As for your second part question, I don't know if it was a conscious effort to upgrade to the computer age. I just remember thinking that we ought to have some fun with the medium. My memory might be erroneous on this, but I think I thought of the idea of the little tingling bells on the front-page. I just really wanted a sense of place about it, like you were visiting. I've got none of that kind of talent, save for drawing some dingbats that Jon incorporated. Jon is a genius, professional web guy who can see where you're going with something waaay in advance. So I was lucky.

E.C.: Looking at my archives, the earliest day I see for a Smile Shop printout is mid-1999. Is this about the time of the creation of the website?

Jon Hunt: That sounds about right, yeah. Right around there.

John Lane: In that zone, maybe a little earlier.

E.C.: I read that the message board was "absolutely an afterthought" to the website. But surely, you both realized that a site like the Smile Shop would generate some cool chat?

John Lane: We didn't have a clue. Remember, Jon and I (and a lot of others) had 'met' via Usenet, which is now sort of archaic, I guess. But we were just kind of inventing it as it went along. Others had already blazed a trail with the whole concept of mailing lists and such. This was just a natural extension.

Jon Hunt: We had no idea WHAT it would do. I hadn't spent any time on a message board before that -- I'd been on Usenet and discussion lists but I wasn't really familiar with message board communities. And we had no idea if anybody would actually join us there! Notice that right around that time there were several Smile message boards -- remember the "Smile Mystery Board?" -- that never went anywhere. So I guess we had no preconceptions going into it.

E.C.: It's always been hard to come up with a descriptive term for the SMiLE enthusiast that doesn't sound "fanatical". I mean, I would like to think that we are a step above the average "trekkie"! What name would you give to the SMiLE enthusiast? SMiLE fanatic? SMiLE-phile?

John Lane: Haha, well, I like the phrase 'SMILE scholar', that way it kind of elevates EVERYone who's into SMILE, and sort of saves you from geekdom. Or maybe I've just doomed the whole lot to geekdom by using that phrase. But seriously, everyone's a scholar in their own way. If you've got the desire to find, listen to, and talk about something as esoteric as 'Barnyard', then you've got a scholar thing going on. SMILE-phile is nice as well though.

Jon Hunt: I've always preferred the general "Beach Boys fan." I mean, sure, my emphasis has been on Smile, but I do like the entire catalog!!

E.C.: Before the Smile Shop I remember an essay on the web (this is one of the few I have which are not dated) called "MP3-Style Smile?" by John Lane, which described "Doctor Hunt's" mp3 SMiLE creations. Shortly afterwards I remember finding these mp3's on a website (the name escapes me, perhaps it was the "Wipe That Smile" page?) and I was totally hooked on SMiLE! I credit hearing these mp3's with not only giving me the inspiration to finally learn the "mysterious new technology" of mp3's, but really turning me into a SMiLE fanatic! How did these early mp3 mixes come about and how did they (or did they?) inspire the early Smile Shop?

John Lane: Wow, that really blew the cobwebs out of my brain, I think. I remember writing that essay but don't remember exactly what I wrote. In those days I was getting into reviewing people's SMILE mixes, which I eventually gave up. As for the early mp3 mixes, you'd have to ask Jon. I was never enamored of sitting down and making mixes. As for their role in inspiring the early Smile Shop, they played a big role, I think. Those mixes got people positing theories about running order and links and what would have remained and what would have been cut. There were also attempts to 'clean up' the sonic deficiencies of the scratchy old recordings. It was exciting. At the time, a lot of these people were getting slagged, but once critics calmed down and realized it was all an academic kind of exercise and relatively harmless, they calmed down.

The mixers/scholars had nothing to do with the creeps who were appropriating the mixes and selling them on eBay, which we always found offensive, make no mistake.

Jon Hunt: Well, it always frustrated me that the pieces of the Smile songs hadn't really been assembled correctly by anybody. We had some indication of how things were supposed to go, but it frustrated me that Mark's template for the "Good Vibrations" box set versions seemed to have been less "let's put these together in the right order" and more "let's just get as many sections in there as we possibly can." So with the advent of digital editing technology, and with Annie Wallace's mix as an inspiration, I thought -- hey, I can do this too, I can essentially PLAY Mark Linett.

I pretty much regret it, now, as it kicked off the whole "Smile fan mix" thing, and it’s virtually impossible these days to tell a fan mix from an actual Brian mix. Imagine how hard it'll be ten years from now.

E.C.: In it's early incarnation the Smile Shop actually featured mp3's with the following disclaimer supplied: "to present the most historically accurate assemblage of the SMiLE album available anywhere." Why were these taken down - were you asked to my any "official" sources? I know that a lot of websites that features SMiLE mp3's were shut down - did you want to just avoid such problems? Do you think we will see their return on the site someday?

Jon Hunt: Well, for one thing, it wasn't really very historically accurate in retrospect, and in fact some of the edits sound pretty dire!!! In my private world I've assembled a mono mix that's like version 9.0 at this point which is much more historically accurate or, at least, I think it is, it’s based on my current theories about how the album might've sounded in the 60s. But yeah -- we took them down because its illegal, and we wanted the INFORMATION and the COMMUNITY on the site to survive. I didn't want us to get shut down and remove a resource from the web. And nope -- you won't see their return! Alas.

John Lane: To paraphrase VDP: We took them down in the interest of social harmony. We discovered that some high-profile people were suddenly visiting the site, and frankly, we didn't want our motives to be misconstrued. So out of respect, we took them down. I think VDP himself may have been instrumental in our decision, as he mumbled something about "pirates" and we didn't want to be lumped in with the teenager in Russia who's selling mp3s from his desktop. As for your last question, I don't know - SMILE is available, the official Beach Boy camp is litigious as heck apparently, and we've kind of reached a point where anyone who's the slightest bit curious can get their hands on a version of 'Barnyard’ done in '66/'67 from some other source.

E.C.: With the advent of the internet, I've noticed a very peculiar difference between Beatles and Beach Boys (especially SMiLE era) fans and scholars. Beatles fans almost universally accepted and embraced the new medium wholeheartedly, seeing it as a valid way to get new information fast. However, there have been some in the Beach Boys' camp that are very vocal in their opposition to the very validity of the internet when it comes to SMiLE! What gives? Is it sour grapes? Is it a sort of jealousy that the information is now accessible to the fans, not just a "privileged elite"?

Jon Hunt: I think you hit the nail on the head, there. I think there's the idea that to be a Smile scholar you have to a) live in Los Angeles, b) be older than I am (although I ain't no spring chicken), c) live in Los Angeles -- wait, did I mention that one? -- and d) have been part of that "privileged elite" from the git-go. There's most certainly a certain amount of snobbery that floats around certain ends of the Smile community. I shan't name names. I imagine anti-web snobbery probably figures into that in some small way, yeah. I guess there's the idea out there that a "printed" version of the information is much more valid than the "digital" one.

John and I have always been all about not caring one whit about the "layers of strata" of Beach Boys fan. One guy is as good as the next, whether he's been a fan for 20 years and hung out with Brian himself or a fan for 2 months and just got Smile a couple weeks ago. They're both as important, and they both have something interesting to say.

John Lane: It could be that. Like any thing that has a fan community, it's composed of an original Old Guard, then an intermediate gang, and then newbies. There's always an Old Guard who believes milk tasted better when it was delivered in bottles; so be it. Metaphor ends there, by the way. But seriously, I've seen some good, intelligent people do some hardcore research on SMILE - real nuts & bolts stuff - only to have it be invalidated by some Old Guard member because the material didn't appear in an 8 and a half by 11 'zine printed up at the local Kinko's or by a struggling publishing house. For the people who are sour grapes, I feel sorry for them as they've missed some really interesting, substantive discussion that may have surpassed what they learned a long, long time ago. See, a lot of SMILE is hung up on people's personal theories - so you're also treading on certain people's sacred grounds, never mind the technology.

E.C.: That's what gave me the idea of using the classic Che Guevara picture with your head inserted. Do you consider yourselves a "SMiLE rebels"?

Jon Hunt: Well, I wish you'd use a better picture of me, as I keep saying!! HA! But no, not really a Smile rebel!! I'm just a guy trying to get information out to people, it’s that simple. I don't really see myself as anything, really! As Gag Halfrunt says of Zaphod Beeblebrox, paraphrased: "I'm just this guy, you know?"

John Lane: SMILE rebel? Nope. Not unless I'm running SMILE bootlegs by horseback into dangerous Afghanistan territory, like something out of "The Man Who Would Be King".

E.C.: We had the official release of SMiLE 2004 last year - but the real excitement (for me at least) has been some of the NEW information that is just coming to light, like the Michael Vosse FUSION article and both Mr. Vosse and Stephen Desper's active appearance on the message boards. I think it really shows that the story of SMiLE is far from closed! What is YOUR take on the revelations from Mr. Vosse & Desper and what do YOU find most interesting in their updated stories?

Jon Hunt: Hmm, well, it’s hard to say. I haven't been following a lot of the Desper discussion, but the Vosse article initially interested me because it sounded -- SOUNDED, mind you -- like he was doing some interesting chit-chat about the Elements -- the idea that it would have been entirely instrumental flies in the face of the "it would have been in the 60s just like Smile 2005" people, and I still find the idea of the water sound effects being assembled into a song ENORMOUSLY fascinating. Of course, I've always been all about "The Elements." And some of the stuff about the evolution of the different song fragments is fascinating too.

John Lane: What I find most interesting in their updated stories, honestly, is in discovering more of the HUMAN face of the history. So much of SMILE has gotten caught up in mythical portraits of the players, that it's nice to hear from certain people like Mr. Vosse and have them answer in non-cryptic language that while SMILE was inspired, it was also at times just off-the-cuff. I like how Mr. Desper has answered questions so in-depth, but ultimately reminding people how it's about the HUMANS who utilize the equipment, not the other way around. He's disabused some scholars about the notion that the right equipment/gear = genius.

E.C.: What is your take on the "Inside Pop" outtake reels?

Jon Hunt: I think they're really keen. I certainly hope some of the digging turns anything up. I wish I lived in New York so I could help. I'd love to know that Brian and Melinda actually cared about trying to retrieve them: just the idea that they're saved from eventual destruction, even if I never get to hear a single note of them, would make me pleased.

John Lane: The documentation that's emerged is just amazing. I can't quite wrap my mind around the possibility of these things ever reaching the public on an official, mass scale though - but here's hoping!

E.C.: Do you think we will ever see an official box set of those 66-67 tracks from the SMiLE session?

Jon Hunt: I think we virtually have to! I wouldn't place money on WHEN, precisely, but it'll come out in my lifetime at least.

John Lane: Probably. Seems to me that a lot of Brian Wilson's actions are born out of getting people off his back, so eventually he might proceed with a box set just to shush people up.

E.C.: Have either of you ever thought of writing a SMiLE book?

Jon Hunt: Thought about it, and made a half-hearted stab at it! I was originally collaborating with Doug Sulpy, the excellent author of a couple Beatle books and the editor of "The 910," a great Beatles fanzine. But I am lazy. Half-hearted and lazy. Too much real-life stuff intervened, and I just wasn't able to give it the attention it deserved -- that's the sterile version. The real truth is that I'm basically a slacker. It's sad, but true. By the end Doug probably wanted to kick my ass, and I wouldn't blame him in the LEAST. I wouldn't want to collaborate with me either!!

Plus: the internet is really my medium. I have a hard time thinking in "book" form. Website form? No problem. Book form? Problem.

John Lane: I've thought about it, but ultimately it doesn't interest me. If I had the motivation, I'd most likely get an edited collection of SMILE-related essays together, but that's already happening with a certain group of people who have the initiative and the brains.

E.C.: Over the years that I've been actively following SMiLE on the internet, I've seen LOTS of SMiLE sites come and go...yet; the Smile Shop is still around. How do you credit its longevity, even after the "official" release of SMiLE in 2004?

Jon Hunt: TENACITY. Pure and simple. We just didn't ever give up. And the fact that there's TWO of us helps. If I lost interest for a while? John would fill in the gap. If John lost interest for a while? I would fill in the gap. I mean, I met my wife on the Smile Shop board. I have a duty to keep it alive, if it died it would be like watching the bar where you had your first date get torn down or something!!

John Lane: Well, the Smile Shop is mutating into something broader. I don't want to 'give it away'. Its longevity has a lot to do with people who have visited over these years. Lots of kindness, lots of support, people who are capable of laughing at themselves. We've weathered our fair share of nutters, too, but generally we've managed to attract a bunch of people with brains and heart. Gah, I sound like Murry Wilson there.

E.C.: Also, over the years, the Smile Shop has received a few facelifts - Can you tell me any new changes that are planned?

John Lane: This new facelift is an attempt to really revolutionize the Shop. When we temporarily closed the Shop, we felt that a bit of unhealthy cynicism had begun to creep into the place. The new Shop is our way of reclaiming our initial enthusiasm for writing about and talking about music, to sort of re-embrace a joyful naiveté that we had started out with. As always, we'll depend on the best & the brightest to make the place what it is. I look forward to the next phase. That sounds incredibly obtuse, I know, but don't want to let the cat out of the proverbial bag.

Jon Hunt: Any new changes? How about MANY new changes? We're about to change the entire tone and tenor and point of the site, expanding it WAY beyond what it originally was. It's also undergoing a MASSIVE, MASSIVE design facelift, taking inspiration from the clean, easy-to-read blog-style design. It's going to be THE go-to site, I'm telling you. The community will not die, it will grow and expand way beyond what we've got there now. Hear that, black board people? We're not going ANYWHERE.